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and we are going to continue
doing that."
It
is that sort of arrogant attitude
by terrorists and the promoters of
terrorists which can cause enor–
mous problems, certainly for coun–
tries which themselves do not use
terrorism as an instrument of state.
One sees it, particularly in Beirut
now, where terrorism is being used
by just about every different fac–
tion in Lebanon. The Shias are
using it, the Druzes are using it ,
the Phalangists are using it- they
are all using terrorism as a weapon
of war.
There seems to be a real fear of
t he possibility of nuclear war. How
does this phenomenon attect the
attltudes of terrorists who are des–
perate and become more desper–
ate every day?
1 don't think that the threat of
nuclear war actually affects the
major terrorist groups, because if
there is nuclear war, they will no
longer be in busi ness anyway. Their
purpose in life and in death is to
achieve their objectives in smaJJ–
scale wars.
There are two places where there
is a linkage between nuclear war–
fare and terrorism: one is the dan–
ger of terrorist groups acquiring
nuclear weapons, or at least nuclear
material which they can use to
blackmail cities. A little whi le ago
this was a fairly high concern
among the antiterroris t organiza–
tions, but that seems to have
slipped away now and people aren't
nearly so worried.
1 know that in the United States
there are very effective military
units which make sure that nobody
acquires nuclear materials illegiti–
mately.
What are Western governments
doing at the hlghest pollcy level to
combat terrorlsm?
The Western governments were
very, very slow in doing anything
united against terrorism. There is
now an agreement under the EEC
[European Economic Community]
which enables all the countries of
Europe
tq
work together. Even
befare that agreement was made,
there were various specialized units
in European countries and
in
Israel
and in the United States which coop-
32
erated on what we call
in
England,
The Old Boy Network. The colonels
knew each other and the captains
knew each other. They exchanged
visits and they compared notes.
They tended to work together , but it
was on an unofficial leve!.
What we've got now officially is
legal, mi litary and police coopera–
tion among those countries that are
specifically fighting terrorism.
One of the greatest assets in this
fight is the German police computer
at Wiesbaden, in wh ich every
known fact about every known ter–
rorist is stored, and all the police
forces of the Free World can draw
on that computer's data banks.
If
people are picked up in London
engaged in a form of terrorism,
Wiesbaden is consulted and then
the results come back in half an
hour.
Some observers think that lnter–
national terrorlsm may pose a
greater threat to democratic socle–
tles than elther externa! military
aggresslon or Interna! subverslon.
Do you think that ls a talr evaluatlon
ot
that sltuatlon?
1 don't think that's true at the
moment. Terrorism is rather like the
sea. There are great tides of terror–
ism and then the tide recedes. Sorne
days the waves come crashing on the
foreshore and frighten us all, and
other days tbey are way out.
A point to keep in mind about
this question is that terrorism can
never succeed in overthrowing a
country unless the government
itself is rotten and falls.
And not so long ago, it was
thought that the Red Brigades
would overthrow the Italian gov–
ernment, but they haven't. They
failed miserably. The Red Brigades
are now in disorder, their leaders
are in prison and they are no longer
effective. This happened because
the government was strong.
The same thing happened in
Germany where the Bader Mein–
hoff gang and the Red Army fac–
tion thought that they could over–
throw the German government.
But it wasn't possible, because the
solid layer of government, not only
the central government , but also
local government, was far, fa r
stronger than the terrorists.
Terrorism can never be com-
pletely stamped out-new coun–
tries will use it as they get into
situations where they see terrorism
as their way of waging warfare.
This is state terrorism and not acts
by gangs of antistate terrorists.
There are a number of countries
in the world who will use terrorism.
The Libyans will use it, the Pales–
tinians have always used it. The
Palestinians have used it because
the Arab states have no other way
of striking at Israel.
There are various bands in Afri–
ca supported by black African
countries which will use terrorism
against South Africa.
It is essen–
tially the weapon of the weak
against the strong.
But at the same
time, it 's a weapon which is being
fostered by one or two major
states.
The Soviet Union will support
acts of terrorism where it suits its
purpose. The Cubans, of course, act
as surrogate for the KGB and will
carry out acts on behalf of the
Soviet Union.
1 don 't want to be complacent
about this because one should never
ever be complacent about terror–
ism, and, of course, we are seeing
terrorism being used in a number
of places. But in most places it's not
terrorism which is going to vitally
affect the course of the world
unless people panic and allow
terrorism to do exactly that. Strong
governments are needed, strong
will is needed, and in this way, ter–
rorism can be contained.
But it can never be entirely
defeated because it only needs one
man with a couple of sticks of
explosives, which he can make from
materiaJs bought in the nearest
hardware store, to hold a city to
ransom. However, although this is
very easy to do, it doesn't really
affect the course of the world's his–
tory.
Specifically, why are nations of
the world and individual groups
within those nations turning to ter–
rorism as an act to influence politi–
cal events?
There are two answers to this
question. The first answer is that
sorne nations are too powerful to
wage war, and the second answer is
that sorne nations are too weak to
wage war. The Soviet Union can't
The
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